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I'm pretty excited to be on the home stretch. I did a lot of sanding this morning but still haven't drilled the tuner holes. I hear a lot of talk about water from wet sanding getting under the finish. Is there a good reason everyone seems to drill them before finishing?

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I drill my tuner holes on the drill press and I just like to get it done early on in the process. Another thing I don't have to worry about screwing up after the finish is on but, at least for me, no other particular reason.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I've done it both ways. I used to drill the tuners holes before finishing. I dealt with the wet sanding issue by applying CA to the insides of the tuner holes before wet sanding.

I switched to drilling the holes after the finish is on and the final sanded is done but not the buffing. I found it easier to do all the final sanding of the headstock faces without the holes. There hasn't been any problem drilling the holes after the finish is on and sanded.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I think I'd like to try that method. Thanks Jay.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I like that inlay:)
When you do your peg layout make sure to run the string lines to the inside of the posts (like you’ll string it up) and not the middle of the posts


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I haven't looked into the layout yet but I'm really surprised that following the plan won't work. That would sick if I just went ahead without checking. I think that will be my morning task.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I'm glad I looked at this again. The drawing clearly shows the tuners to be not in a straight line, weird. Laying a straight edge on the plan shows that each string has plenty of clearance if I follow the dimensions. It also would have been somewhat OK if I had gone with my original layout. The A and B strings would have been a little too close for comfort though. This is better and thanks for pointing this out.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Drilling tuner holes after finishing sounds terrifying. During finishing I will take a small artist's brush and apply a couple coats of lacquer inside the tuner holes to prevent water infiltration during cut and buff. Much less scary.

The pucker factor is actually really low for this. I make a paper mask that has the shape of the headstock and tape it to the face of the headstock that faces down while drilling to keep the finish from getting marred while the headstock rests on the sacrificial piece of wood on the drill press table. The biggest thing to watch out for is to not hit the tip of the brad point drill bit when moving the headstock around.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I decided to drill before finishing and tried the metric step drill suggested here. I think it's the perfect drill for this. Not that it matters but I stepped hole that is perfect for each side instead of one size all the way through which is how I would have done it in the past. I'm a step drill convert and now I want more of them. Thanks to whoever suggested that.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I'm finally in the finishing stages. Right now I'm pore filling with Z-poxy as per Robbies video. I forgot to get the rubber squeegee and started with plastic, didn't like it and went to the hardware store and got a sqeeegie. Much better results on the sides.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Well pointed out some failures. After sanding and scraping the sides, I thinned out the binding to almost nothing in one spot. I'm not going to fix it but just take it as a lesson learned. I'm not going backwards on this guitar again.

I need to do a better job bending so in the future, I will build a bending machine and do a better job of fitting it tightly in the mold.

Anyway, I'm moving along and have the first coat of waterborne shellac on the top and after the second one dries I'll add the second coat if Z-poxy on the back and sides.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Hutch--

Just a suggestion from someone who has wound up with thin bindings too often:

Really, when you get down to it, the biggest cause of thin bindings is the order in which we do things. By that I mean: If you wait until after the bindings are installed to finesse the sides, thin bindings are almost inevitable. The trick is to do as much finessing of the sides as you possibly can before you cut the binding channels. Not just a rough cleanup, but real refinement. Then cut the binding channels after that. The bindings have a much better chance of surviving.

Now, to your point about better bending: Wonky bending can lead to sides that are too thin, because you have to refine the sides so much that there are spots where the wood is uncomfortably thin. But that's not the direct cause of thin bindings. Waiting too late to refine the sides is what causes thin bindings.

I put so much emphasis on this problem because it really took a long time for it to sink in for me.

One other thing that has helped me is to take the binding channels .010 past the actual binding thickness and then bring the sides down to the binding, not the other way around.

This has the additional benefit of fitting the upper bout binding a bit better if you use a tower jig to cut the channels.


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I hope I re-read this while I'm building #2. Thanks.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I just want to point out that I did attempt to level the sides prior to binding. Had I slid a straight edge around it I would have found these low spots. It wasn't til I applied pore filler that I saw how bad these areas were.

I think the bending machine would alleviate this problem. That and some pencil marks to sand off. My only other experience bending was on mandolins. With the sides so narrow, it's easier to get them flat. I never dreamed my first guitar would be such a problem child.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

Since I laminate veneer to make sides for many of my instruments I like to have the binding channels as perfect as practicable. After routing the binding channels I will take a small piece of binding and fit it all along the rebate and file back any sections that hold out the binding. As Brad mentioned, many people bring the sides down to the binding. With laminated sides you need to be pretty close to start with.

There are a few strategies to consider when trying to get better looking sides:

1. Side braces if you don't have them, beefier versions if you do. The Gore/Gilet books actually talk about making these slightly curved so that the sides are a little convex on the outside, as opposed to perfectly flat (which can be elusive), or concave (which is the worst).

2. Using more "boring" material for sides. Interesting grain is also grain that can bulge and go wavy when you get it wet.

3. Improving process, either at hand bending or using a bending machine. Both can do a fine job. Both can have problems. I've been on a hand bending kick for a few years. I've done both, and I really enjoy hand bending more than using the machine. But I am using better tools than I had when I first tried to hand bend. I like this bending iron the best: https://luthiers-bench.com/. That iron, along with a bending strap, have made a huge difference for me.

Good luck moving forward.

I've sanded through the binding in one spot where the brace end is showing. Outside of burning this guitar and starting over, I'm just forging ahead and try not to worry about these things. If it sounds and plays well, at least I'll have that. I learned a lot of lessons on this one and probably more to come.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I think I'll shoot for .105 for my sides next time. Does that seem reasonable 9r should I go even thicker. I think with thicker sides I may have less trouble with wonky sides.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

What Don said. I also hand bend by choice and it definitely requires practice so you can get better results with time. Or you can use a bending machine, I have two but I haven't used one for 10 years

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm surprised you guys have the machines but prefer hand bending. With that information, I'll hold off and try to improve my hand bending. I just might get started now while I have a little time off. I don't know what the thickness of my next sides are. I thicknesses them along with these sides over 2 years ago.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!

I don't know for sure because I've never gone anywhere near that thick, but I think 0.105 would make the bending much harder and for some woods it might increase the chances of breakage. I thin my sides to 0.080 - 0.085 and bend on a bending iron. I really prefer bending on the iron. The only times I've had sides end up with ripples or cupping after bending was with non-quartersawn woods. The cupping was taken care of with side braces. If I'm bending wood that I suspect might ripple, I thin those sides to high end of my thickness range to allow a bit more room for level sanding.

I was wondering why you had the problem with sanding so far into the binding so I looked back through the whole thread to see if you showed the method you used to level the sides and I didn't see it mentioned. How did you go about doing it?

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Ditto to everything J said. Going too thick increases the chances of the wood breaking instead of bending. 0.085 is my target, and with reasonable woods, this works fine all the time for me.

When you bend wood, you are heating (and getting wet) the lignin so that it becomes flexible and allows the wood cells to move around. Once you remove the heat and moisture, the lignin goes stiff again, and the wood is stuck with its new cell orientation. Wood (or anything, really) compresses on the inside of the bend and stretches on the outside of the bend. There is an axis that separates the compressing part from the stretching part. As a material, wood compresses more easily than it stretches. So, breaks are mostly on the outside of the bend. Adding a bending strap on the outside of the bend helps move the axis further toward the outside of the wood, and supports the outside of the wood to lessen the tendency for breaks to happen out there.

One of the main virtues of hand bending is that you can watch and feel when the wood is flexible enough to bend, when it needs more water, when it is starting to scorch, etc. And you can react immediately to all of those things. That's tough to do with a bending machine.

I think having my bending iron hot enough for the task is a big part of making it work. If you are trying to bend with not enough heat, it is just a miserable experience.

These are just some of the things I had to learn the hard way, by messing up some wood.

I used a scraper for a lot of it but I obviously didn't go far enough. If I had I probably would have thrown those sides away. I need to get better at bending and fitting to the mold. I remember struggling and putting a lot of pressure on these sides to get them where I wanted. Anyway, I started a new thread to discuss this and I have a fresh set on the bench.

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Hutch

Get the heck off the couch and go build a guitar!!!!